#Pygmy Lore

[lisa-russell]

Lmao, this fact of Northern Pygmy Squids and Pearl is just hilariously spot on!

Also the fact her name is related to to a family of the Pygmy Squid is even better🤣

[nomohmoss]

oh how i hate the theory that the pale princess and the six pygmies is about cataclysm in khaenri'ah like it Doesn't Fit

[hearthomelesbian]

also. shrimp time. piano is behaving and they are all still alive :•)

[ID: Photos of mixed grade blue dream cherry shrimp in a heavily planted fish tank. End ID.]

[hopetune]

ROBIN & BAILU @ OVERTURE

definitely should have made this post BEFORE participating in event stuff but the gremlin excitement overtook me and now i'm throwing this onto the dash a few days late. oops. we stay silly.

ROBIN

was already en route to fontaine when she received the invitation. as someone in the entertainment industry, the scam alarms were ringing loud and clear as she read it

she's wary of the invite, but allows herself to enjoy the activities and indulge in the familiar faces. once things escalate, she's definitely locking in.

BAILU

doesn't know why she received an invite but is using it as an excuse to travel out of the luofu and have some fun.

she's just very happy to be here. she doesn't think much of the strangeness of the invite. she's going to be extremely gagged once lore happens.

[daughter-of-inklings]

The idea —

The execution —

[sproutysprout]

a short recap/analysis of 'the pale princess and the six pygmies'

i've been re-reading the in-game books and i'd like to remind you of / introduce you to the wonderful anomaly that is 'the pale princess and the six pygmies'!

BACKGROUND

it's the book that an abyss mage is trying to steal during lisa's quest (which is not optional!), claiming it held an important secret relevant to the abyss order; at first, everyone was kinda confused by it: why are they looking for a/that specific fairytale? yes, it could be real, but what's so special about it? WELL, after this most recent (3.3) archon quest we know why - fairytales can survive irminsul memory erasure!! so the story in this book is highly likely to be one of those parables like the one nahida tells

THE CONTENTS OF THE BOOK

the first (and only available) volume provides a character description: the Night Mother (with no heart and no mouth, sin incarnate) who rules over the Land of Night and the Pale Princess who rules over the Moonlight Forest (where pale, blonde, blue-eyed people lived)

the previews for the other volumes introduce the other characters:

the Light Prince and the Six Pygmies. the former teams up with the Pale Princess to "*save* the Moonlight Forest". the pair then meets the six pygmies. however, the subsequent volumes insinuate that the pygmies are the antagonists/traitors - vol 5 describes the pygmies' plot as "sinister", and vol 6 describes their plot as "nefarious". this is a far cry from snow white and the 7 dwarves which the title seems to parallel (the dwarves weren't generally evil)

nevertheless, the "meeting" between the princess, prince and pygmies (vol. 4) seems to indicate an attempt at a truce. the last volume (vol 7) is just said to include the Night Mother's prophecy (which is most likely the main part relevant to the abyss order)

ANALYSES

NOW, there are so SO many analyses (and i'll cover some), but before I do I would like to point something out:

the fact that so many stories from vastly different periods could somehow fit this one story outline is VERY interesting, especially given the new context provided by the samsara quest, and the idea that "in this world, everything runs in a loop"

could this be the tale of the overall loop of teyvat?

anyways, i'll cover the following analyses in more or less detail:

the recent past

the current-ish events

the distant past

note on abbreviations: NM - the Night Mother, PP - the Pale Princess, LP - the Light Prince, 6P - the Six Pygmies, MF -the Moonlight Forest

NM - celestia*, PP - gold, 6P - archons, LP - ?albedo/dain/7th pygmy, MF - khaenriah

the Night Mother could be symbolizing Celestia. the best piece of evidence for this would be the quote "her punishments were always unexpected", which could be alluding to the celestial nails (at the same time, after a few of them you'd think they'd be more expected lol just don't make progress and try to know more than you should, and you should be good, ok? /j)

also! it has not been said that the night mother doesn't have eyes (unlike a mouth and a heart), which is interesting because visions have been described as "the heavens' eyes" by nahida

it is then possible that the moonlight forest could be Khaenri'ah. some evidence:

not ruled by the night mother (Khaenri'ah was said to be a goddless nation ruled by the people)

there was a "constant lack of sunlight" (Khaenri'ah was underground)

additionally, the following quote:

"The only thing she could not bear was the occasional ray of moonlight that made it through the clouds. The light that penetrated the walls of darkness always irritated her."

that light could represent human achievement / progress / arrogation, which we have repeatedly seen irks Celestia (most prominently in the case of Orobashi and Khaenri'ah)

this would make the Pale Princess someone like rhinedottir/gold, a.k.a. albedo's creator, as a master of the Art of Khemia and Alchemy (which has been shown to possess the ability to create life)

the Light Prince would then be someone who would be willing to help save Khaenriah, like dain or pierro or albedo (aether could also fit the description, especially after the most recent archon quest, but this wouldn't work for lumine so i'll discard it for the time being); alternatively it could be another Khaenrian (the king) or the 7th pygmy, but that means it would have to be either Venti or Zhongli (the only two male archons)

2. (the current-ish events) NM - ?; PP - 7th pygmy (tsaritsa?); LP - a khaenrian (pierro?); 6P - archons; MF - a nation (snezhnaya?)

the trouble here is the NM, bc Celestia does rule over the tsaritsa, so MF would be a part of the land of night, and i currently don't have an alternative

3. for the distant past it could be telling the story of the second who came and the seelie demise, and the seelies definitely match the description of the "light" inhabitants as well, so the LP could be the "master of the heavens" and the 6P would be the second who came (for some more "fall of the seelies" lore, please refer to this artifact set)

note that the analyses also heavily depend on how you answer the following questions:

are the Six Pygmies under the Night Mother's or the Pale Princess' juristiction, or are they independent entities? if so, which land are they native to?

is the light prince an inhabitant of the moonlight forest?

so, yeah, much to think about! (i also wanted to include a cross-referential analysis of the Night Mother/Pale Princess and Nottfriga/Madgalene from Hex & Hound, but dw we'll leave that for another day lol)

and that's a wrap!! that was a lot, and if you made it all the way here kudos to you, thanks for reading - here's a flower!

do let me know of any mistakes i made or any alternative analyses you enjoy!

[ more on my twitter @glazelilybloom ]

[aromanticasterisms]

every day the archon quests give us more and more information that makes me cry and beg and plead for mondstadt characters' story quests act 2

[lwieserce]

pale princess and the six pygmies continues to haunt my mind as an incredibly lore relevant book that we can't really decode right now, the number 6 hasn't been signigicant anywhere in the game as far as i am aware but i do have an idea who the pygmies might be.... a very vague one based only on the assumption that the pale princess herself is istaroth

[redkoi1]

XVIII

"You aren't gonna like being forgiven for something like that."

That's for the pygmies, they stayed child-like because of a dysfunction in their Pituitary glands. They ARE IN FACT- CHILD-LIKE! AND THAT'S THEIR BODY-TYPE. THEY'RE JUST SMALL AND LIKE BEING INNOCENT[*like normal human beings] NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM. THEY'RE NOT ACTUAL PEDOPHILES. UNLESS YOU FORCE THEM TO BE[*which getting mentally abused out of your innocence/naivety can do].

actually nevermind you're all weak as fuck and not worth it. at least you're cute and shit. not worth the trouble if you just get spirited away. they have to abuse me to fit in too. rot.

[anilyan]

Venti is Phanes + on Istaroth and the Primordial One

Not so crack theory: Venti is Phanes and is the androgynous being born from the Chymical Marriage between the Primordial One and Istaroth, before she was betrayed by the Sinners

(I posted this before but now it's properly explained)

I am using this lore in my old mondstadt fic, Nameless (actually soon to turn into trilogy, since vol 2 is about venti rewinding time and vol 3 is present time story and I took so long to plan all the lore with all the canon crumbs and theories we had...)

Yes, a lot of the info about gods is pulled from wikipedia, I’m not being paid to research more, okay? I just want to feed the brainrot. My main sources besides those are the videos listed at the end.

I would love if this theory made its way to some big lore content creator for them to analyse and criticize, because I have been rotating this in my head but I don’t have their capacity or knowledge to tear this apart.

NOTES:

This post contain minimal mentions of 2 leaks, about the rest of the collection of The Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies, and a sus minimal old leak about Venti

This post contains some references to the Penacony arc from Honkai star rail, but no knowledge about the game is required and in fact, I don't even play it myself and those are just sus parallels

0. Summary / main points

Istaroth and the Primordial One parallel Chronos (personification of time) and Ananke (most powerful dictator of Fate and mother of The Fates/Moirai), respectively.

Chronos and Ananke laid down the cosmic / orphic world that created/reshaped the world. In a way, that was an Alchemical Marriage, that also gave birth to the androgynous winged being Phanes/Venti, and to the Abyss,

Venti has many ties to fate, including extensive apple symbology visible even in wisp form. The apples, besides being a symbol of fate, also represent a dream bubble in accordance to the structure of Teyvat. Quoting his most sus birthday art, “It is written that there is a whole tiny world hidden inside an apple core”

Venti has at least some control over 1 half of Teyvat while the other half is ruled by The Night Mother/Nyx. He also offers us half of the apple in the mentioned birthday art.

Ananke was a serpent-like being, and we see a Black Serpent 1) coiled around Phanes 2) coiled around the pearl/cosmic egg in the Gnostic Chorus 3) in the Black Serpent Knights, who also had Ishtar/Istaroth’s star as a symbol 4) In Nibelung, if we consider serpents and dragons the same

Istaroth supported Khaenri’ah (thus why the Nation had her symbol) and both opposed the Heavenly Principles/Celestia, until she was betrayed by the Sinners/6 Pygmies and forgotten

The Primordial One was opposed by Celestia. We also know that Nibelung fought Celestia. They were either allies or even the same being (a black serpent), and their perceived opposition is not too different from how Remus went down misinterpreted by history

1. About the Primordial One

In case it’s not yet clear, this assumes that Phanes =/= Primordial One. After all, the book Before the Sun and Moon simply says that “The Primordial One may have been Phanes*”,* and the fandom just started equating the two.

I am of the opinion that the Primordial One and Celestia are in opposition, while Istaroth is on the side of the Primordial One, or at least opposed to Celestia too. Maybe the Alchemical Marriage was part of a plan of theirs. Read more about it in section 3.

And if the truth about Remuria taught us anything, is that some rivalries depicted in history are false. In the same way Remus went down as a Tyrant when in reality he never wanted to employ force and was even allied with Sybilla (a vishap), I would say that the Primordial One and Nibelung/dragons/vishaps probably found ways to coexist. We do know that Nibelung went to war against the Heavenly Principles/Celestia, but if Celestia and Primordial One opposed each other, that just makes an alliance between PO and the Dragon King more likely.

We don’t know if Primordial One = 1st Descender and Celestia = 2nd Descender, so I will avoid using those terms throughout the post. But if the 2nd who came = 2nd Descender = Celestia, then that would lend further credibility to the idea that Celestia and the PO are on opposing sides, since the 2nd who came basically stole PO’s ruling of Teyvat.

2. About Istaroth AND Khaenri’ah

Like I said above, I believe that Istaroth sides with the Primordial One and that both are in opposition to Celestia

Istaroth has the ability to create alt Looms of Fate through those seeds she gives away - those basically grow into trees that are databases of history outside the control of Celestia. I had already affirmed this for my fic before we got the 2nd Caribert quest, but at this point is practically confirmed.

Istaroth is based on Astaroth and Ishtar, and Ishtar’s morning star is an 8-pointed star just like the symbol of Khaenri’ah. And so the Black Serpent Nights probably served Istaroth in some way.

Khaenri’ah supposedly didn’t have a god, but let’s keep in mind Istaroth was forgotten by time. It’s also possible that, even if Khaenri’ah had a god, they still considered themselves the pride of humankind since Istaroth likely wasn’t associated with Celestia, as I mentioned

Speaking of Black Serpents, other prevalent Black serpents are the one in the Gnostic Chorus, and Nibelung, in a way (not sure if they are or not the same entity). So I would say that Nibelung is/was also allied with Khaenri’ah/Istaroth/Primordial One. Please refer to the section above for an explanation.

The 6 Pygmies and the Pale Princess is a book that is an allegory for the 5 Sinners of Khaenri’ah + Dainsleif and Istaroth. I include, at the end, a video that explains that properly and is very much worth the watch. From there (or at least, from the leaked volumes), we know that the Sinners basically betrayed Istaroth, which might explain why she ended up being forgotten and why Dainsleif is the only Pygmie that didn’t go fully down the Sinner’s path.

3. The relationship between the Primordial One and Istaroth

Like I say above, many things point to them being allied. At the very least, we can quite safely infer they both opposed Celestia/The Heavenly Principles and in turn allied with Khaenri’ah.

The cosmic/ orphic/world egg was created by Chronos (personification of time) and Ananke (most powerful dictator of Fate and mother of The Fates/Moirai). “Ananke and Chronos are mates, mingling together in serpent form as a tie around the universe. Together, they have crushed the primal egg of creation of which constituent parts became earth, heaven and sea to form the ordered universe.”

Ananke and Chronos have to be the PO and Istaroth - which one is which is a bit debatable, with their genders being a counterargument on its own. But I would say Chronos is Istaroth (due to her associations with time, although she is more a god of moments than of time) while Ananke is the Primordial One (who had the 3 moon sisters/moirai as shades + is probably the Dreamer/HSR’s SUNday parallel who plays the symphony that creates the fates reflected by the moons (read more in next section)).

The cosmic egg that birthed the world, together with the Abyss AND Venti, probably resulted from their Alchemical Marriage. I wouldn’t be too surprised if it was also the Gnostic Pearl depicted in the Gnostic Chorus cutscene, or even if the Black Serpent there was Ananke/Primordial One. In fact, that would only solidify the connections with the Black Serpent Knights and them wearing Istaroth’s symbol. And it would be extra funny if somehow the Primordial One and Nibelung were the same entity (since I already explained why I think they were are least on the same side)… and therefore were a black serpent/dragon.

Okay, but what is an Alchemical/Chymical Marriage? It’s a marriage between a Red King and a White Queen, the Sun and the Moon, gold and silver, sulphur and mercury. It’s sometimes pointed as the source of the Philosophers' Stone, and from that union of opposites is birthed an androgynous being. Btw, that marriage is facilitated by a dove, but this is off-topic and you can see why that is interesting in the last video linked. It’s also a process that sometimes involves ‘fermentation”, which is also off-topic but ties well with the wine-making process and other things mentioned in the last video too.

According to Jakob: "The Seal of Chymical Marriage was an ancient Fontainian ritual meant to seal off the source of life. Now it has been reversed, and all has been set free once more!" So, it can be used to separate the Primordial Sea from the world, which sounds similar to creating a world/pearl/philosopher’s stone/egg/dream bubble that floats in the sea of quanta or wtv is the logic used across Hoyoverse’s worlds. We confirm again this was necessary to create Teyvat's egg, and that the Primordial One couldn’t do it alone because two people are required for a marriage.

And do you know what Marriages also require? A ring. Who was escaping with a golden ring, that is an important figure of Khaenri’ah and the only Pygmy who didn’t act like the others/didn’t become a Sinner? Dainsleif, whose constellation is even a Serpent ring. May I point to the Das Rheinegold music drama, that is part of the series The Ring of Nibelung, and maybe use that as extra merit to associate the Primordial One with Nibelung?

4. About the world of Teyvat

Dragons = Vishaps = Sea slugs = Bees = Seelies. Yes. We already know that the the dragons and seelies in Genshin are based on irl sea slugs, I won’t elaborate on that. As for Bees, that is because we have seelie-like bees in Remuria, connected to the prophet Golden-Bee Sybilla (don’t mistake Sybilla with Sylla, who is a Dragon King, although I guess this is all the same family)

Teyvat is theoretically 2 worlds/halves, the version we know and the mirror world, that is probably the Abyss. Or maybe all of it is a mirror world, idk. We can even see similar world structures in Honkai Star Rail, especially in Penacony, where the world there is literally mirrored and a dream too. Some people say Teyvat is divided in 3 parts: the Light Realm, Void Realm, and the Human Realm. But I think the Pimordial One just transformed the Light Realm into the Human Realm, so there are still 2 parts only, and we know they can overlap anyway.

Cycle: People die » are absorbed by the roots » are supposed to travel to the top of the world tree (inverted, so top is in abyss) to become Irminsul fruit / stars » said stars form constellations that determine people's fate, or more accurately, since they are all in a dream, are data that allows the tree to predict their fates » it’s because people exist as stars that their fates and presence can be summoned in the form of shooting stars

Dainsleif confirmed that the leylines can be woven to determine Fate / have their records changed. The Loom used to weave them is a Symphony, or in other words, Remus’ Symphony of Fate is very similar or the same thing as a Loom of Fate, although maybe not at the same scale. It’s possible that other God-Kings also attempted to create their own Looms of Fate.

Add to that some Penacony’s parallels, and you can infer that the Symphony is controlled in a floating palace, that is actually a Grande Theater, by the Sun(day) (potentially Phanes or the Primordial One, basically the one who Dreams), and it’s reflected by the moons (Aria, Sonnet and Canon, so the musical associations are fitting). Considering that the 3 moon sisters are also probably the mythological Moirai who weave Fate, yeah, that tracks.

5. Finally, about Venti

Addressing the Venti is/isn’t the weakest Archon debate: Idk and I don’t quite care, because regardless of how much power he holds now, this theory is about his origins and role more than anything.

Venti is the one narrating the Gnostic Chorus cutscene, so clearly he knows about the origins of Teyvat and other important stuff. Yes, it can just be because of his ties to Istaroth who had the winds of time and bla bla, but I would say he has a bigger involvement.

In the Gnostic Chorus, there is a Black serpent, and I already mentioned how it ties with Khaenri’ah and Istaroth in the second section. Well, Phanes is a figure that has a serpent coiled around him too, Ananke, to be more precise.

Phanes was believed to have hatched from the egg of Chronos and Ananke (Istaroth and PO, section 3), OR Nyx in the form of a black bird and wind, OR from the cosmic /orphic egg placed in and hatched from Aether, who was the personification of the bright upper sky and another son of Chronos. Regardless, it seems like the egg birthed both Phanes AND the world?

Phanes is described sometimes as male, sometimes as androgynous. I don’t need to explain how that fits Venti. The androgynous part also fits with how a being born from an Alchemical Marriage should be androgynous due to being an union of opposites.

Phanes is also described has having wings and a crown. We are yet to see a crown, but at least the angel wings are there.

Some myths say that Phanes was Dionysus (god of wine… amongst other things), or Eros (god of love, yes I’m simplifying), and oh boy isn’t Venti the god of all of that too? Although this is complicated since it has to do with gods being iterations of past gods and such, you can read more about it here

In a certain play, after Phanes mates with Chaos, he creates flying creatures. It would also fit Venti well, especially given that tale from Amber’s Quest where he taught birds how to fly.

Okay, this gets less obvious now. Phanes is a first-born deity who emerged from the abyss and gave birth to the universe, and is a god of creation, light and goodness. The Abyss part is extra intriguing because the world has an abyss half, and some in-game books even compare wine with the Abyss, and also with the idea that drinking the abyss/wine is a way to acquire Forbidden Knowledge. Please, check the last video I link.

Phanes counterpart is Nyx (Night). In some tales she is Phane’s wife, sometimes his daughter, and in others she creates an egg from which Phanes is born, so wtv. I don’t know who Nyx is (besides being clearly The Night Mother from the book of the Six Pygmies), but it’s pretty clear that the Abyss half is under her responsibility in some way.

Oh, right, this was a sus leak that broke my mind months ago and seemed completely nonsensical, but since I started cooking this theory, I can’t help but look back at it. It claimed that Venti was the guide of the Primordial One. Humm… yeah, if Venti was part of a plan between Istaroth and PO, I can see that, although I don’t know what the goal could be. Maybe he is assuming Istaroth’s role now that she is gone in supporting the PO?

This is a very wild guess, but I really thing Venti has something to do with the Gnostic Pearl. Idk if that pearl is the same one that hatched the world, or something that holds the world together (think Mikha from HSR), but I can imagine him having some responsibility over taking care of it.

And if you think Venti holding Fate in his hands is a stretch… let’s talk about Apples. Especially in anime, Apples are often depicted as the fruit of Fate (look no further than Mawaru Penguindrum), and in Inazuma, the girl giving Fortune Slips is called Gendou Ringo, with Ringo meaning ‘apple’ in Japanese. Well… Mondstadt is a land full of apple trees, Venti loves apple cider and is often asking for apples to pay for his performances, is being given an apple in archon form in one of his birthday arts, created the Golden-Apple Archipelago, and even the top of his head in wisp form resembles an apple stem. Seriously, I go crazy with how many people never noticed that. This is too much in our face to not be relevant.

This sounds like a stretch, but apples are round and so the shape is not too different from a dream bubble. And do you know what the birthday art I mentioned had in the caption? “It is written that there is a whole tiny world hidden inside an apple core. Here, this half is for you. Let's take a stroll in the tiny little world. But remember to keep it a secret because... you're the only one I want to bring there.” If he isn’t holding Fate or a world in some way, then I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.

You know how I said that Teyvat is divided into 2 halves? That also connects well with his quote (when he gives us half of the apple/world), and with the idea that Phanes is the day while Nyx is the night. So maybe Venti is responsible for the half of Teyvat that we know/he gave us while Nyx is responsible for the Abyss side.

So… is there any proof that Venti is Phanes? No. Are there many many sus elements about him and connections with the things I listed? Yes. I could see the Traveler being Phanes and being entrusted the Light/Human half of Teyvat by Venti as a scenario just as likely, especially if The Abyss sibling ends up being/becoming Nyx, but I like this version more xD

But even if the main theory ends up being wrong, I hope people you got some things to think about.

Some videos for extra lore, more a less in order of relevance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZIR-tfzfd4 » Reinterpretation of all volumes of the Six Pygmies and the Pale Princess in light of finding out about the 5 Sinners of Khaenri’ah + Dain + connections of Istaroth with Khaenri’ah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3xYKtUniQ » More about the connections between Istaroth and Khaenri’ah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePjY4c0Rj0k » Elaborates on how a Loom of Fate is basically another database, as opposed to the Irminsul, and mentios how Istaroth can could create several Looms of Fate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAm9uElsKd4 » Parallels with the Penacony arc from Honkai Start Rail and list of evidences that Teyvat is a Dream bubble

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhST-fz6Yps » Video is from before we learned about the 5 Sinners, and I’m not fully sold on the chronology, but I still think it does a good job at elaborating n the serpent thing from the gnostic chorus and other things we can infer about genshin thanks to parallels to Penacony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHCv8KFdL6M&t=1045s » Ties sacramental bread and blood with wine and the way wisdom/abilities can be passed down thrown ingesting parts of gods, and the concept of fairy rings and The Ring of Nibelung, with the concept of a Chemical Marriage.

[nightmare-grass]

Odd Moon-related Connections in Genshin Lore

- Glaze Lillies and Nilotpala Lotuses only bloom at night

- Glaze Lillies may have been the favorite flower of Guizhong, who’s hair was grey/white and who’s outfit had stardust on it (she was the god of dust, so unless she was a god of stardust specifically that’s some odd things about her)

- Nilotpala Lotuses bloomed at the bleeding feet of the Goddess of Flowers after being cast out of Heaven in the wake of the Seelie disaster

- There is at least one account in Sumeru that claims Liloupar came to the people in a moonbeam. Quote: “Our prayers to the Goddess of Flowers have borne fruit. Her envoy came to us in a moonbeam, granting us life-saving medicine and clean water … …She called herself Liloupar, born of the lilies” and later in that same passage, Quote: “At moonrise, she warned us that the water from the canal may carry disease.” So many mentions of the moon in one text about Liloupar and her relation to the Goddess of Flowers.

- Seelies seem to have a moonlit sky with sparse clouds reflected in their bodies, the bright orb in their heads looks like a moon.

- Guizhong’s death produced a cloud of dust that blocks out the sky and creates a darkened area in Liyue.

- Istaroth was said to be responsible for the Sin Shades, who only show up in Evernight in the dark.

- Nahida has some moon connections in her titles, and she has white hair and pale skin, like Paimon, who has a starry pattern on her scarf like Guizhong had on her robes.

- The Goddess of Flowers built a city for her offspring, the Jinn, and she called it Ay-Khanoum, translated to English that’s the City of the Moon Maiden.

- You can link the mythologies of the Goddess of Flowers and King Deshret to King Solomon and Astarte, who was a version of Ishtar, who is the root for the name Istaroth

- The power of the Aranara is the power of dreams, they exist in the dreamscape. And with how much we use a harp to connect with Aranara, it’s just as likely that music is linked to dreams. And Venti, one of Istaroth’s thousand winds, is a bard who knows all songs past and future, and plays a harp.

- The moon sisters were named Aria, Sonnet, and Canon, literally musical terminology.

- There’s probably a connection between the three moon sisters and Teyvat’s concepts of Time, Memory, and Dreams

- One of Venti’s powers is that he can pull up memories from the far flung past

- The quest for Time and Wind has these sun dial looking things that are actually moon dials since the puzzle only activates at night

- Seelies make a jingling tune, Nahida makes a jingling tune, the Goddess of Flowers taught Rukkhadevata the “source song” which birthed the race of Aranara, and the Pari fought the abyss using the Great Songs of the Khavarena, which seem to summon pure elemental energy aligned with Dendro.

- One of the fairytales that was weirdly important to the Abyss Order before we learned that fairy tales could hold the truth about the past if it’s been rewritten/deleted in Irminsul was the Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies. I’ve already noted a few pale characters with crowns or royal status but there was also a character called the Night Mother, who seemed to be the villain of the story. Another odd Night connection.

- Andersdotter wrote The Boar Princess, her signature rose design is on the cover. A rose is also on the cover of The Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies, so could she have written that too? As a member of the Hexenzirkel, it’s pretty likely.

- The Seelies were said to be beautiful pale people, and Rukkhadevata is pale with white hair, as is Nahida. Another trait they share are elf ears. Klee is pale with fair hair, and she’s an elf; from what we know of Alice, her mom, she could look much the same. Although he’s old, Pulcinella of the Fatui Harbingers is also an elf with white hair and pale skin, fitting the description. Seelies are fairies, and elves in real world folklore are considered fae, so could the Seelies have given us the elf race in Genshin? Or the Moon Sisters, who presided over the Seelies? Elves seem to be as long lived as gods, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

- I think Aria, Sonnet, and Canon represented Memories, Time, and Dreams, symbolizing the past, present, and future respectively. I don’t know the order of the goddesses in their roles, but I do know they had a fight and two died, leaving only one, and wouldn’t it be something if that surviving moon goddess became Istaroth, the god of Time? Maybe even Irminsul came from the death of the moon goddess of Memory? I don’t know what could’ve happened to the goddess of Dreams, but maybe her death caused the constellations that are canonically made up of the crystalline fruits of Irminsul in the sky box of the Firmament.

(If I could post more than 10 pictures I would but you have the internet, you can look up photos of the stuff I’m talking about.)

[katyspersonal]

can I ask about the furtive pygmy… any information you think is important to know! I got into dark souls this year and have been very curious about the role this character plays (also, are they related to manus? I have seen a lot of people often mention them together, so im wondering what the case is!)

Ahhhh, yeah, the fURTIVE PYGMY, SO EASILY FORGOTTEN

Yeah, this "character" only appears on the screen once... well, maybe twice, because there is also this very gay significant statue in the Ringed City at the end of the world, where Pygmy Lords did go:

Though this might reflect Pygmy as folks in general rather than that person, as well as it is unclear whereas Gwyn is giving the Pygmy here the crown OR taking it away!

The "Furtive Pygmy" gets mentioned only once in the intro of Dark Souls 1 and directly never again, and appears to be featureless, raceless and genderless 'idea' of a humanoid rather than someone concrete, albeit with proportions and height notably more lanky than those of an average human! However, the Pygmy are not "just" like this! For example, here is an average Pygmy Lord:

They are very dead because you find this corpse in the condition where the time itself was forced to outrun itself (you'll get there eventually, not sure how far you are in the trilogy and lore). However, you see the clothes and hair! It WAS a person with features! I think it makes sense for progenitor of all humans, which 'Furtive Pygmy' IS, to start out as an 'idea' of a human rather than someone with concrete traits, but they might assume particular form later down in life!

As for connection with Manus, the most likely version is that Furtive Pygmy who discovered the Dark Soul and created the Humanity from it IS Manus! This is what Kaathe has to say about Furtive Pygmy:

Kaathe is a person as old as Frampt, who knew Gwyn in person:

So, basically? Manus himself could not have been that Dark Lord figure who was born amongst humans in the end, despite Gwyn's fears, and simply predated us if we chose the Dark Lord ending! Because then, Kaathe would have instead mentioned that there was a Dark Lord, who got defeated or something along those lines, and now Kaathe seeks another! And whereas Kaathe does mention that everyone "failed him", Manus himself was not that "failure"! The problems started because of those who disturbed Manus from his grave (!):

Sorry I forgor to screenshot Gough's dialogue If Kaathe wanted Manus to be the Dark Lord, then why THE heck would people of Oolacile "drive him mad" to the point of his Humanity running wild?Because grave of Manus IS pretty human-sized:

In either case, is not it... odd, that Kaathe was seeking to turn Manus into the source of the Humanity running wild, as opposed to making Manus succumb to Dark like it was with the Four Kings? 🤔 He could not claim Manus to be the failure when he was driven mad under his request to begin with! This mess, if anything, was planned. And if we think that long ago Manus was someone Kaathe turned to Dark but Manus "failed" him, then why would Kaathe want to awaken him again? The "failure"?

It makes more sense that Kaathe was seeking his darkness rather than himself! I think that waking Manus up was needed to MAKE the Abyss spread, and from THAT point Kaathe was even able to offer it to humans to begin with! Four Kings are simply an example on the forefront, as they had fragments of Gwyn's soul, but sounds like multiple others tried to follow the Dark and failed.

And... this IS thing with Manus: he is way, WAAAAY too powerful and significant to be simply a very strong human that fell for Darkness once. Like, Four Kings are not even close! The darkness of the Abyss itself, as well as Humanity itself, originates FROM Manus!

Guys I beg you screenshot EVERYTHING while you play it is so embarrassing aaaaaaa Like, this is already stupid powerful, don't you think? Who else can create the dark of the Humanity itself just like that? Not to mention how his influence was so strong that humanity within humans in 1000 yards distance from him reacted by running wild just like his does!

Dark Souls 2 also puts something in perspective! All the Lords (and Seath, apparently) are "reborn" in Dark Souls 2 into new forms! Mostly in spirit but hear me out!

The Witch of Izalith, after the destruction of the Bed of Chaos and after killing her new form, is eventually reborn as a little bug/parasite thing, but by the time of the game, she has found a host in the Lost Sinner; a woman imprisoned for a great crime but forgotten by time itself. Nito is destroyed but his essence comes to inhabit dark and abandoned places. In fact, he somewhat returns into the form of a great mass of desperate Hollows who had been thrown in the Gutter to fester. So he is somewhat reborn as the Rotten, who is said to be accepting of all those who are discarded. Nito was drawn to the forlorn and wished to embrace them.

Gwyn returns too, his essence seems to inhabit the fire of the earth. He has become "Ichorous Earth" as the game implies. The Iron King built his empire on the power of magma and smelted… well, iron… but after trying to give life to the fire and iron, the resulting abomination incinerated him and flung it into the lava where he had built his keep on top of. There, his remains and soul came into contact with the essence of Gwyn, and perhaps due to how similar they were, the two merged into a gigantic demon-like monster.

That would sort of leave out the Four Kings (just some guys with fragments of Gwyn's Soul) and Seath, right? But Seath also persists after death, and I guess it is fair enough because he is at least an Everlasting Dragon! He exists simply as a "Writhing Ruin" as the game puts it. He is an influence that can be felt, but not seen. And it is that influence that would control Duke Tseldora's pet spider and transform her into a giant monster, all so that they could reach the buried dragon corpse and its scale, useless to him now.

....and I cannot back up any of this shit in my screenshots dump fashion because like I said, I spoke too soon about being able to return to playing Dark Souls 2 haahaaaa! Okay it has been fixed by the time of writing this post (I owe @val-of-the-north and @fantomette22 my LIFE!!!). But yeah, notice how someone is still missing from the list? You could even say that someone seems to be........ FORGOTTEN 🥁 if you never send me another ask I won't blame you lol

Manus is reborn in the form of emotions he felt upon his death (want, loneliness, anger and fear), but notice how all important Lords of the Dark Souls 1 + one on their level like Seath make a return so far! So, what exactly makes Manus be on the same level as the first Lords, if he never discovered a Soul nor was offered enough of Gwyn's? Well.. I think in this case, most likely, he DID discover a Soul! Furtive Pygmy should have made "a return in spirit" in Dark Souls 2 all the same, and he DID!

There is also the fact that all these "reincarnation" are now known as 'Old Ones', and Manus is likewise referred to as 'Old One'. The 'old one of the Abyss'. He is very much someone on the same level, which he logically could only be if he is Furtive Pygmy! I guess I just strongly rely on the consistency from the devs, and really, Dark Souls 2 team never flopped! If anything, this game helps to understand Dark Souls lore in general a whole bunch.

Not to mention that whereas as you can see Pygmy and humans are absolutely interchangeable concepts as far as Dark Souls 1 goes (nor anything further on retcons it completely), Manus is referred in lore as "primeval" human! It has an awfully similar ring to "your human progenitor", right?

He might have been the very first Pygmy, or might have been among the first ones of this kind! After all, Lloyd is an uncle of Gwyn, despite Gwyn's stupidly significant status for the form of the world itself! Everybody appeared from the Dark towards the Light, and even that fourth "dark Soul" discovered by 'Furtive Pygmy, so easily forgotten' is a flicker of light and much smaller than others! It refers more to the power of world-shaping rather than the nature of Soul, like how Nito was shown already dead when he discovered his Soul but now he was capable of infecting the rest of the world with death! Similarly, Gwyn didn't create the Light but became what emanates it, and Manus did not create the Dark but became what emanates it. His Japanese title is 深淵の主, マヌス and 主 means lord/master/head/supervisor/etc rather than 'father'!

What he DID create, though, is humanity! So, I think it is fair to acknowledge him as a primeval human rather than a Pygmy! And he moved from that 'featureless' initial state it seems, as he wielded the staff and wore a pendant he cherishes so much. (.....actually, now that I think of it, I should check full Japanese dialogue, because knowing localization team's track record, Manus might not even be a 'he' in the end sdhfhdsf 主 is gender neutral! Let's put a pin on that)

His own Soul is also THE darkest Soul in the entire setting! The second in darkness is Gael's Soul, and that guy has been consuming Humanity for a very long time! Something Manus didn't do. He does the opposite, actually!

_____________________________

So... Yeah. I think everything points towards the fact that Furtive Pygmy is Manus, especially seeing how Lord of the Dark is a position of a human and somehow Manus, both primeval human and literal Lord of the Abyss, still didn't qualify for such! If despite being the darkest creature to ever exist he is still not 'a Lord of Dark born amongst humans', it simply means the darkness already was his before humanity was created! I don't see any other reason for Kaathe to encourage raising him from the death besides to trigger the spread of the Dark itself!

I really hope I was able to explain myself.. Soulsborne lore is hard because even the most obvious things are only implied and not directly said, so you can always fall into a rabbithole of 'but what if's

Bonus:

Manus is also a rat girl, apparently ffdhfdhsg

[hearthomelesbian]

the pygmy corydoras <3 + flathead and catfish

[lordsovorn]

Dandadan theory (vague spoilers about the last few chapters of the manga):

1) empty space means aliens are involved, so gnomes-pygmies are likely aliens;

2) from the many references to fairies as tiny crafty people no one notices, I'd assume these tiny crafty gnomes no one notices ARE fairies. Just like Sumo Alien IS the Flatwood Monster, etc. Which means.

3) Dandadan is very possibly going to drop a "fairies are actually aliens that have been on Earth for a really long time and adapted really well to the supernatural ecosystem" lore bit.

4) The mysterious blackmailer figure might be gnomes in coat. Or, more generally, things might finally involve aliens that did their homework on Earth's ghosts and yokai well enough to even know about the "yield" thing, which is an interesting escalation.

[autism-purgatory]

Call me the Furtive Pygmy bc I’m about to disappear from the lore and only become relevant in the last piece of content for the trilogy

[leafnighthybridwolfsbane]

Seawing Headcanons

(Info below the cut)

With seawings, I think they're going to be one of my favorite tribes for patterning. This one specifically is based on a koi fish. I did forget to do one thing that I have in my personal headcanons. Experimenting with new way of doing the eye when simplifying it on the bust. Also, accidentally merged a couple layers when the patterning was on a separate clipping mask.

Tribe Headcanons

Seawings have additional feelers to find food such as clams. The deeper one hatches, the more they have.

All the feelers have glowing patches that are similar to an angler fish.

The edge of the chest ruff is fade tinted the color of the gills.

Their gills pop out when courting another dragon. These colors very depending on the area the egg has been laid at and took to hatch. Meaning there is a wide variety of colors they can be.

The bulbs along the chest and spine also glow.

Seawings have big feet to aid in swimming.

Their wings are counter shaded, so the bottom color is the lightest while the top color is the darkest on their bodies.

The glowing patterns on their wings batches their glow scales normally, being rare when they match more with the gill colors

Seawings are the second smallest tribe normally.

This can change depending on the depths the eggs have been laid at. In tide pools or similar shallow areas, they will tend to almost be the size of runts or pygmies. If they're laid in deeper depths than most, like near under water volcano depths, they tend to get very big.

These Seawings tend to have their own health issues when hatched and aren't recommended.

Tide pool Seawings tend to have harder than diamond scales, making it hard to move a lot. They are considered what we humans call "Pug-like". It is easier for them to gain a version of Münchmeyer disease due to the hardness of their outer scales. Though they have been getting better in more recent histories.

Tide pools are typically derogatorily called "Sunfish" or "Blob fish" due too their health issues, though thankfully it has ceased a bit in recent decades. It's not a lot better though

Deep depth Seawings tend to be almost the exact opposite issue. Their bones and scales are softer than diamonds and they cannot surface as they are a purely aquatic species.

Deep depths tend to be a bit more fire resistant due to being closer to the underwater volcanoes.

Patterning of different sea creatures isn't unheard of, just not as common.

Their glow scales and can camouflage slightly like an octopus to keep themselves from being found. Normally the color will match the surrounding scales and patterns.

Seawings take great pride in their flashy scales, staying near water to make sure they look like a piece of sunken treasure.

Lore Headcanons

Seawings are experts at writing stories. They do not often tend to write histories, sometimes exaggerating them slightly to make them a bit more suited for a story to write.

They have had several heated arguments with the rainwings that they're better artists. It was consecutively agreed that seawings were better writers while rainwings are better artists. Seawings don't go into tangents with flowery, emotional, descriptions that pause the entire plot to get into.

Seawings still have issues with the ethics of having their eggs in tide pools and deep depths due to the issues it may cause to those variants of those hatched from those circumstances. Both variants were once used for past wars, and even one civil war.

Other exports include pearls, sea treasures, and fish.

Their best alliance is with the mudwings as they have quite a bit in common when it comes to what they can do. It's believed that they are distant relatives when it comes to evolution.

Their funerary rites include placing two large pearls in their snout underneath the tongue, wrapping the snout in linens that matched their gill and glow scale colors. Once this is done, they are buried halfway into the sand so their bodies can become ecosystems for the creatures that share the same ocean.

Their afterlife is similar to to the river styx, though it is a forest-like place where their guide will ask for the pearls as payment so they can swim in the oceans of the afterlife. The linens are used as a make-shift pouch.

Seawings see an apology as a way to explain why they did the action. Their apologies are giving reasons for their actions. Just saying something like "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" without reason is considered disrespectful and the quickest way for them to take it as a sign for the other dragon to fight for repentance. This makes them the tribe that is quickest to anger.

Drawing Inspirations

Their bodies are similar to a Persian cat.

Marine animals are a great source of coloration and patterns.

Pugs are a great reference for the way a tide pool seawing looks like.

Whales and sharks bodies are best for references for the deep depths seawings, though their feelers are better to be referenced from octopi.

Wing of Fire Headcanon List

Sandwings

Skywings

Icewings

Mudwings

Leafwings

Hivewings

Silkwings